Divine Designed Life Podcast

Episode #391 – Honest Reality

Man with open hand looking to heavens

Honest Reality
June 1, 2014
Episode #391

With Martha Kilpatrick and hosted by John Enslow
Special guests: Jacquelyn Nawrocki, Carole Nelson and Jennifer Wentzel

(Martha)  Iniquity, which is the worst of sin, is to hate God.  And there are only two kinds of inheritances, very simple.  One is to hate God.  You come from, I think John had prophecy that he came from a long line of God haters, and he has broken that, that generation.  Other inheritances of those who love God.  There’s only two kinds of inheritance, and we don’t get it that Phariseeism is the most extreme hatred of God, because it’s what Proverbs says, “Those who hate God would feign obedience,” and that’s why somebody that protests so much that they love God is very suspicious to me,  because if your life is lived to love Him, you never feel like you have enough love for Him.
(Jacquelyn)  “Speak the truth in your heart.”  I’m thinking about for me I spoke partial truth, and partial truth is a lie.  Forgive me for revenge.  God, I hate her, forgive me.  God, I’m jealous, forgive me.  But I never got down to the root of what that really is.  I hate You for doing what you did to me, and as I’ve been going through repentance and asking God to forgive me for hating Him and asking Him to show me what He’s shown you,  I envy that experience.  As horrible as it is, I envied it.  I felt like I heard God say the other day, “Will you forgive Me?”  And I thought, “Oh, I’m in delusion again.”  And then I was listening to the tapes that Martha did in Oregon, where you said God asked you to forgive Him, and forgiveness is not that God is wrong….  Forgiving God is not that God is wrong, but that He did hurt me.  And so, yes, when I heard that tape, I could say, “Yes, certainly I forgive You, God.”
(Martha)  I think the call, “In everything give thanks,” is so crucial so that you don’t set up a stronghold for the enemy, a foothold for the enemy of opposition.  It’s so, it so sets it up so that you are accepting His sovereignty.  Just to say, “Thank You,” keeps you from going to that place of a subconscious or an unconscious hatred of Him and a resistance and a bitterness with Him for…  He certainly does, He puts His people through suffering, great suffering.  I was just reading Paul, “We are hedged in, pressed on every side, troubled and oppressed in every way, but not cramped or crushed.  We suffer embarrassments and are perplexed and unable to find a way, but not driven to despair.”  That’s kind of what happened to me yesterday.  I think I was experiencing some despair, and He simply took it.  Being honest with Him, it gives Him the access to you, to your heart so He can take it and solve it.
(Jacquelyn)  The pain of life is nothing compared to the pain of living in nothingness and death.
(Martha)  And losing the presence of God, losing the…
(Jacquelyn)  Because that’s what it is.  It’s losing the… Living in nothing…  Denying my feelings, denying my hatred of God is losing the presence of God, and that is death and that is hell.  “And though I make my bed in hell, there He will find me.”
(Carole)  Well, you know, even that scripture that you just read where Paul is saying all of those things; I am perplexed…  That is his feeling.  He is expressing, he is confessing, he is admitting to exactly how he feels.  Most of Christendom rejects that and says  I’m supposed to be ‘this’ rather than the truth, which says, “I am so perplexed.  I am, I have no clue where I am.  I don’t even understand completely how I feel, Father.”  The Word says, “Casting all your cares on Him for He cares for you.”  But if you don’t know your cares, how do you cast those cares on Him?  If you don’t feel those needs, if you don’t feel those feelings, how does He…?  I don’t know if this is right or not, but I had, just had a picture a few minutes ago of it’s like… We have to fill up the cup of our emotions and our heart and we hand it to Him and He drinks it.  He somehow when we do that, He takes that.  That is casting our cares on Him, and we hand Him that cup and I don’t understand it.  It’s a mystery to me, but somehow He drinks that and takes it from us.
(Jennifer)  I was just moving in that direction when you said that, because the word, permission, I think, believe it or not goes both ways, because of the gift of free will.  So to tell the truth of your heart, which He already knows, because He is All-Knowing.  He knows our hearts as we never will in this life.  To be honest with Him, to be open with Him, to admit to Him where we are, what we feel gives Him permission to move.  It’s not that God doesn’t orchestrate things around us.  It’s not that He can’t, that He doesn’t, that life doesn’t move in, that He, you know.  Not to do with that.  It gives Him permission to move specifically in our hearts.  Because He does not violate our wills, because He will not violate my heart even though He knows it all, and that word, permission, it just, it never occurred to me that that is essential to the intimacy with God.  Because He does not violate me, likewise He does not just activate intimacy.  He does not just, BOOM, shoot in where I have not given him leave to go.  Martha, you always say He doesn’t want a mindless drone.  He doesn’t want a begrudging slave.  He wants a companion.  We wants love.  He wants me engaged.  He wants relationship.  That is relationship to give us the deepest relationship that I can have with Him, to go and say, “I know You know my heart, but I’m going to tell You my heart.  I’m going to admit what You already know.  I going to say it to Your face, ok?  I’m going to acknowledge.”  And that’s, I think, what we need permission to do is to acknowledge it, because there seems to be two ways of dealing with it.  There’s the honesty route, which leads to intimacy in relationship giving Him permission to move on me, and there’s the route that says, “Oh, that’s a very bad feeling, so no, Jennifer, stop that. You do not hate.  You will not hate.  Say you’re sorry and stop hating.”  And it’s ridiculous when you say it out loud, because I can’t change my heart.  I can admit what is in my heart, and I can say, “God help me,” but His, the work of the Spirit, the miraculous, mysterious, incredible moving of the mountains of my heart, I cannot will to happen.  I cannot will for my heart to not hate God.  What I can say is, “God, I’m so sorry, but I hate You.  I hate You right now.  I hate that this is happening.  I hate that I can’t do anything about it.  Why are You doing this?  Bla, bla, bla..  I’m so sorry, but I do not love You right now.  In fact, I hate You.  God, help me.”  That’s what I can do.  But I can’t stop that.  Do you understand?  I can’t by sheer force of will, of Jennifer’s powerful will and self-discipline, I can’t dig out the dark seething abscess in my heart and fling it away with the triumph of good humanity.  I can’t do it!  Do you think I haven’t tried?  Oh my gosh, most of scars are from self-surgery, from trying that very thing.  “I will fix me. I WILL.  Hang on, God, this minute!  About to be squeaky.”  And I do it because I don’t believe that speaking honestly, acknowledging, putting it out there.  I believe that to do that is the blasphemy, is to give life to those thoughts, those feelings, that somehow it makes them super powerful.  It makes them real that if I just deny, deny, deny, if I move away from it.  If I, “Nope, don’t do that.  I love You, I love You, I love You.  I don’t hate You.  I’m not mad at You. rrrr, rrrr, rrrr.”  If I just do that, then I can make them disappear.  I can change my heart.  I can move it through sheer force of will and repetition and all the rest of it.  And what your CD did, Martha, was gave not only me permission, but showed me that to deny the honest feelings of my heart, however wicked they may be, however much they shame me, however much they torment me in what they are, to come to God in all honesty is to give Him permission as the other Party in my most intimate relationship, to move with me and say, “Now, now that you have given this to Me, this shameful place, this dark place, this place of torment that you can’t move, now I can come in.”

Honest Reality – Episode #391 – Shulamite Podcast

3 Responses

  1. Sandy says:

    And how this work can come to be within us that we would accept God’s sovereignty – to forgive Him for hurting us… to come to thank Him for having hurt us…
    I wonder, would He ultimately take us to the place of accepting Him to kill us like Issac and Jesus did…?

  2. Sam says:

    “We have to fill up the cup of our emotions and our heart and we hand it to Him and He drinks it.”

    So well put, Carole! This is amazing, and the confession from Jen is so powerful.

    Just so thankful about this post and all of YOU!

  3. Gaby says:

    Exactly, Jennifer: I would also be afraid the “wicked depths” in me could get hold of me if I allowed them to shine up. Typical human “old man-thinking”! It is only true when I don’t give it to Him. Otherwise on the contrary, He then, only then, will be able to deal with it.
    If I am not honest with Him, I am not honest about me. I cannot repent of what I don’t dare to see. So He can’t take it away, as I owe it; and what I owe will owe me!
    This CD and podcasts open up a fully new dimension of freedom in walking with Him;
    A new dimension of the extent of liberty from the old self, which is there for us to have!
    And a new dimension of seeing what John 4:23 might truly say:
    “A time will come…when the true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and in truth – in Spirit and reality; for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshippers” (AMP)

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